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shaggyfox44

I bought a lemon. What action can i take?

shaggyfox44
3 years ago

Typical Cleveland, Oh, 1942 cape cod brick exterior, cinder block foundation. We bought the house in 2018.


Our Inspector:

1. Roof has 3-4 layers

2. Small patch of Asbestos above HVAC

3. 200amp grounded circuit breaker with knob and tube wiring, exposed wires, etc.

4. exposed wiring in attic closet


Didn't seem like too bad of a list and the finished basement, decked out like a 50s diner, sold us. The real estate agent din't make much of a fuss about it all either.


The seller unfortunately passed away from lung cancer just 2 days before signing. So we had to wait for the estate to pass to the beneficiary several weeks later.


It took a while to find an insurance company that would cover knob and tube and they all make you disclose the roof age. Finally found one with AGI underwritten by Progressive. Two months after starting the policy and moving in to our new and first home, Progressive sent us a letter stating something along the lines of, "We are canceling your policy effective on the next billing date, due to your lace of attention to fix your roof." Something like that lol. I called them and they said they sent someone out to find we had 3-4 layers on our roof and they wouldn't cover the teardown cost.

We specifically told them when we got policy that we had 3-4 layers. Anyways,


We got a new insurance company, took out a $4500 loan for a new roof just 2 months after closing. We had 4 layers.


I started doing some more digging a few months ago and am still finding new things that amaze me. I started noticing the drywall in the finished basement bubbling so i dug out a big chunk and confirmed my horror. The basement walls are "Framed" with 1x3s WOOD GLUED to the concrete block and a single screw holding it in place up top. The 1/4 drywall or plasterboard, whatever it is, was nailed in with 1 inch nails, no inner or outer corner beads used anywhere,

Wiring was wedged between the "joists" and crammed in the tiniest outlet boxes I've ever seen.


By the window, Drywall was just resting on the crumbling mortar of the window opening and the glass block mortar was installed and formed after the drywall was up.





I took out a few drop ceiling tiles and found the basement was wired with 12/2 wire with no boxes, and no wire nuts, just electrical tape, some going to 2-prong outlets and lights with no boxes. Some of the 12/2 are tied in together as if it were knob and tube.





2 months ago i dug even deeper. I removed the whole wall and hello mold! 1 month ago we got inside waterproofing done. I don't know all the big details but they put in the perforated drain around all 4 corners, weep holes, rocks, battery backup sump pump and some kind of air scrubber.



Upstairs we have a large HVAC register in the floor of the living room, it doesn't work too well because they tapped a hole in the bottom to make a vent for the finished basement and fit a soffit around it.


I had an HVAC tech out to service my system and asked him about it and he pointed out all the loose friable asbestos wrapped loosely around nearly every single register outside...and INSIDE the ducts. i have asbestos blowing in the wind every time the freaking air comes on.







Upstairs bathroom drains are a combination of PVC, ABS and steel or cast iron.




Custom half bath in the basement, sink drain goes through the wall and drains to the laundry drain.





Finally! I have peeling paint in my built- in kitchen cabinets and pantry so I was going to take them back down to wood, bought a lead test kit, you guessed right, we have lead LMAO!


I don't know if anyones gonna read this or answer this question/rant. I'm also just kinda venting a bit and i guess a bit of education for any first time home buyers out there, just because it looks good doesn't mean it is and your one inspector could miss a great MANY of things, use more than one and pay good money for em LMAO I'm just at a loss.


So what would you guys do here? just get it fixed and hope it adds roi? or can i take legal action 3 years after buying?




Comments (23)

  • maifleur03
    3 years ago

    You are stuck with what you purchased. Tough lesson but one that many people learn.

  • worthy
    3 years ago

    We've bought many homes built from the 1880s to the 1960s. The more they've been "improved" by prior owners, the worse they were. So what you have is not surprising.


    Three years later you want to go after the deceased vendor, real estate agents, your inspector? Guessing you're out of luck according to statute of limitations. But a quick consult with a local lawyer will give you an answer.


    Get rid of that asbestos promptly!

  • roccouple
    3 years ago

    I am so sorry. That really stinks and is a cautionary tale!


    you might as well talk to a lawyer. But I wouldn’t want to live there. It’s sort of disturbing you have asbestos and the last owner died of lung cancer.


    You might look at your options of selling at a severe loss vs. the cost to fix the issues. I am guessing selling at a loss will be less expensive.

  • HU-178658043
    3 years ago

    Selling it may not be an option without first doing some expensive remediation work. The mold, lead paint and asbestos may have to be disclosed as well as the wiring non-compliance issues.

  • Abby Marshall
    3 years ago

    I extend to you my sympathy. So disappointing to have so many issues the first time out. But please dont feel alone or like you did something wrong cuz a lot of people deal with the same sort of problems. Unfortunately home inspectors miss, or are unable to inspect, a lot of things in a house. Best of luck to you.

    shaggyfox44 thanked Abby Marshall
  • cat_ky
    3 years ago

    A house built in 1942, I would expect to find lead and asbestos. It is pretty much what is expected in a house built in that era. The other stuff, sounds like diy stuff gone terribly wrong. Treat the health hazard stuff first, like lead and asbestos, and mold, and then slowly begin to repair what needs to be. Hopefully, then when you sell, you may be able to get your money back.

  • maifleur03
    3 years ago

    Just a question about your knob and tube wiring because of what happened to a friend. She was told that she had it. All indications were that she did. When a electrical service sent a person out to give an estimate, one of several, she finally found out that the wiring had been left but was not connected with enough cut out that it would be impossible for someone without experience to make it work. The other services had not even noticed.

  • PRO
    GN Builders L.L.C
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Reminds me of this:

    Money Pit

  • sparkshooter
    3 years ago

    While I know it all seems very overwhelming right now, none of the stuff you have listed seems too horrible for what appears to be an older starter home that has never had a full gut reno. Gently, I think you may need to reassess what a house actually needs to have fixed and what is ”nice to have.“


    For instance - the way the plasterboard is hung in the basement - sounds like they used furring strips and did a meh job on finishing. Who cares????? Old drywall was commonly hinge with nails, and the furring strips aren’t intended to provide support, that’s what the giant concrete blocks are for.


    The mix of ABS/steel/cast iron - again, who cares so long as it is watertight? there are ways to adequately join different materials together.


    Of all the things you listed the ones that seem actually important are the electrical - get rid of knob and tube yesterday and fix the bad basement wiring!!! - and any ongoing moisture issues.


    As far as asbestos, I suspect the HVAC guy was talking about asbestos boots for your registers, which are incredibly common in older homes and not a significant concern so long as they appear to be in one piece.

    shaggyfox44 thanked sparkshooter
  • raee_gw zone 5b-6a Ohio
    3 years ago

    It sounds like you knew about the multiple layers of roof and the wiring when you bought the house - I hope that you factored in the need to and cost to remediate those when you made your offer. BTW, there are remnants of the old wiring still there in my 1941 basement, and not connected to anything as someone else suggested yours might not be. But you clearly have other wiring issues that need immediate attention.

    The piping isn't a problem as sparkshooter said, and that laundry drain should be connected to the sanitary sewer (not the storm sewer) so that isn't really a major problem either, other than the open connection is unsightly but not a hazard. You can easily add an elbow to carry it all the way into the drain.

    If you check your seller's disclosure form, and find that something was denied as a problem (rather than just "unknown") and that it appears the sellers should or did know, ask a lawyer if there is still any remedy. After 3 years, and a deceased seller, I doubt it. When I bought my 1941 house (with undisclosed problems, including a leaking water main, all missed by the "inspector" ) the seller's disclosure law didn't go into effect until 2 weeks after closing - a nice little detail that my agent failed to point out.

    Be aware that there is no requirement to disclose either possible or probable lead paint (should be assumed in any house of that age) or asbestos, unless the seller has actually checked and found those to be present.

    The asbestos heat shield above the furnace is not a hazard if intact, but you can probably easily remove it and replace with a modern heat shield - they aren't expensive at the big box stores. I did so myself, wearing a mask, gloves, and just sliding the square into a plastic bag that I immediately sealed.

    shaggyfox44 thanked raee_gw zone 5b-6a Ohio
  • shaggyfox44
    Original Author
    3 years ago

    Thanks for the responses everyone. I really do appreciate it! Yeah so guess I'll just keep with the health and safety things and go from there. But yeah, the basement is fully modern wiring, most of those wires split off at the first floor where there's been no renovations, so that's all k&t cloth, then it splits off again to the finished attic where its half k&t half modern...The 4 pages of notes taped to the circuit box listing all the outlets and switches, doesn't make it any more clearer lmao!. My dad is a 40 year electrician (uncertified) he's gonna help me out in that regard


    Had an asbestos company come out. one quoted me at $1000, much much less than i was expecting lol! Also have 2 more asbestos companies coming out in the next 2 days for some quotes.

  • PRO
    GN Builders L.L.C
    3 years ago

    Kidding aside, a dead load of 1 layer of asphalt shingled roof over conventional framing is usually 15LB per SF.

    Let's say it's 3 layers that would be 45LB per SF of dead load. Depending on your region and if you have a winter season, you should have a snow load factor for your region.,i.e NJ is a 20LB snow load, some areas 30LB load.

    If combining dead and live load during the winter season and that load will exceed the roof's design load, your roof rafters could deflect, the worst-case scenario roof will collapse.

    This is why you are not allowed to have more than 2 layers of roofing...Therefore I wouldn't wait with solving your roof issues.

    Good luck

  • raee_gw zone 5b-6a Ohio
    3 years ago

    Oh, another thing (yeah my house is the same age, with a high water table and moisture penetration into the basement that I had to deal with). If you have asbestos duct tape around the joints of the ductwork, you can paint that with mastic to seal it up (anywhere that you can reach it). This I had to do before I could have the utility company do a blower door test.

  • maifleur03
    3 years ago

    Seems counter intuitive but ask the asbestos companies what would happen if it was not removed immediately. While it does need to be removed there is a likelihood that the asbestos is not loose and there is no immediate danger from it. If it is loose with fibers flying then it is an immediate problem. You money might be better spent at this time on the wiring. Depending on your area you may need permits so check your local regulations on line. Can save you lots of problems later if they were needed and you did not have them at the time you were making improvements. Some insurance companies will insist that licensed electricians do major rewiring. Will cost more now but see if you can bring your wiring up to code which may include having additional outlets. When this house was purchased 8 feet apart was mandated but recently I saw someone complaining about having to place them 6 feet apart.


    Another suggestion for your kitchen is to have several dedicated plugs. I was going to have both a toaster oven and a microwave using the same outlet. The 1100 watt microwave calls for a dedicated plug. Unless I wanted to plug and unplug there is no way I could use both right there. There are other appliances that can cause problems. Having to reset the circuit breaker while fixing dinner is not something you want to spend time doing.

  • greg_2015
    3 years ago
    last modified: 3 years ago

    Will cost more now but see if you can bring your wiring up to code which may include having additional outlets. When this house was purchased 8 feet apart was mandated but recently I saw someone complaining about having to place them 6 feet apart.

    What you are describing is commonly called the "6 foot rule". It doesn't mean you need receptacles every 6 feet. It means that no spot along the wall can be further than 6 feet from a receptacle (without passing over doorways or other obstacles). Big difference.

    On a long uninterrupted wall, that would mean every 12 feet.

    But that also means, for example, if you had 2 doors that were on a wall with a 3 foot wall space between them, that 3 foot section would also need a receptacle.

    (Note: This is the minimum requirement. It's suggested to have more than the minimum. Nobody ever complains about having too many convenient places to plug things in)

  • makmartell
    3 years ago

    Yikes. When the inspection revealed the knob and tube, and the 4 layer roof... *thats* the time you calculate how much that’s gonna cost you, and make your offer accordingly (or run away). Looking past that, and not remediating after purchase? And three years later you want a legal remedy? I’m afraid you’d be laughed out of court. At this point... make a list. Prioritize. And get the place livable. Roof first. And electrics.

  • PRO
    GN Builders L.L.C
    3 years ago

    In NJ you must rewire a house prior to closing because the insurance company will not insure the house for the new buyer.

    Therefore the seller must hire a contractor and do that, or if the seller gives credit, the insurance company will issue a temp insurance I think for 60 days and the buyer must rewire the house within that time table.


  • Gina S
    3 years ago

    Every home has issues. You are doing a good job of revealing it. I'd start with the wiring. It's great that your Dad is helping you!!


    I'm redoing a rental and accidentally pulled up vinyl (linoleum) that likely had asbestos. I had a hard time with it and while looking for a solution I found out this type of flooring, from before the 80's, likely had asbestos. I shutter thinking about being on my knees scrubbing the glue and backing off for 2 days.


    I found mold in two corners and tore everything in those areas to bare cement. It was in the basement. I pulled out all of the carpet and the ceiling was already taken out (mold). Now I going to clean with borax and add some extra insulation. I like Mineral Wool Insulation (Rock wool). And, I am going to paint the exposed ceiling.


    My contractor already did the main level. He tore everything to the studs in most areas and re-wired.


    My point is that it all can be solved. Don't panic. In every house, especially an older house, you're going to find things that need to be fixed. It's interesting that I've run into some of the things you have and felt kind of good about it all being easily fixed. You've got this. Don't stress. The biggest problems you knew about when you bought the house and the new revelations seem expected for a house this age.

  • tiffany66
    last year

    Who in the heck did your home inspection?  Was he hired by you or the seller? Was he even licensed?  Why have you not pushed back on his poor inspection report? Seems like your report lacked the necessary details to make an informed decision regarding your purchase.

  • millworkman
    last year
    last modified: last year

    " Why have you not pushed back on his poor inspection report? "


    Two years ago, immaterial at this point @tiffany66

  • tiffany66
    last year

    Worthy, the sale was started by the owner, BUT he died before it was completed, therefore the buyers had to wait for the heirs to take legal possession of the property in order to buy the house.  So, any claim would never been against a dead person, but to the heirs of the house, if such claim were valid.

  • bry911
    last year

    @tiffany66 - Why are you bumping a 2 year old thread to take issue with a 2 year old post about a house that was purchased 5 years ago?


    However, without knowing more information, I don't think your analysis is correct. Houses are always sold as-is, this is why buyers typically do some sort of due diligence before finalizing the purchase. However, most states require sellers to disclose certain information about the property that may not be easily discoverable by a buyer. So while houses are sold as-is, sellers are not allowed to lie on required disclosures.

    In this particular situation, the only likely recourse the buyer has is against the original seller for their failure to disclose. It is doubtful that the heirs redid the disclosure forms when the acquired the property and if they did they likely were advised to simply mark unknown for every disclosure (any competent realtor would advise that). So, while the original seller is deceased, the action is still against the original seller's estate for his/her failure to disclose. It would not be against the heirs as they had no omission.

    Since this post was made three years after the purchase (and death of the seller) then it is unlikely there is still an estate to take action against. I doubt taking action against the inspector is going to be beneficial either, as it has been three years.

    Furthermore, none of the problems look actionable anyway. The inspector can't see how the basement wall was installed, unless there is cracking the no corner bead is a non-issue, etc. Largely this just seems like someone who bought an old house with very typical old house problems and now doesn't want to deal with old house issues so wants someone else to be responsible...

    Case in point...

    1. Roof has 3-4 layers

    2. Small patch of Asbestos above HVAC

    3. 200amp grounded circuit breaker with knob and tube wiring, exposed wires, etc.

    4. exposed wiring in attic closet

    Didn't seem like too bad of a list


    I mean... that is a pretty bad list. Asbestos, a bad roof, and knob and tube wiring. If we can find a foundation problem, the OP can win Money Pit Bingo.

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